Lore talk:Fa-Nuit-Hen

Changing Fa-Nuit-Hen's pronouns?

In the Scions of Ithelia DLC, ZOS has switched to using exclusively they/them pronouns when referring to Fa-Nuit-Hen (unless anyone has counterexamples I've missed). I assume that older content like Maelstrom Arena still uses he/him because patch notes didn't mention dialogue changes. I'd suggest we use he/they pronouns (where you generally alternate between using both), but ZOS has elected to refer to characters this way in the past (namely Online:Martina Abor), and in Fa-Nuit-Hen's case have instead seemed to have simply switched from using he/him to they/them.

Should we switch to using they/them, given that the most recent material uses it exclusively? I'd suggest asking ZOS about it but I don't know if they'll deign to clarify a daedra's pronoun preferences. I'm in favor of changing to using they/them, but I also use they/them pronouns so I am biased. M1SHAAN (talk) 13:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

There’s clearly a conscious character change going on given all these new sources are changing Fa's pronouns. That being said, there’s sources from Tes 3 (the sermons), Bladed (the flame Atronach helm) and Eso itself including individuals close to Fa such as Tutor that all use male pronouns for him. Therefor the article could probably stand to benefit from addressing the nuance of his gender identity somehow. Dcking20 (talk) 13:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Worth mentioning that the Tutor uses they/them in the new content. But yes, older content (and in other games) uses he/him. Having said that, Fa-Nuit-Hen is a scion of Boethiah, a Prince known for their genderfluidity. It'd be odd to not include the nuances of Fa-Nuit's gender identity in the page. Not to mention ZOS went through the effort of editing player asked questions in the Lore Archive to correct he/him to they/them. I don't think we should "retcon" old lore, but just reflect that Fa-Nuit uses both sets of pronouns, or simply "he/they" for short. CoolBlast3 (talk) 13:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Given the older sources on the matter, I'd say we have our first canonical case of he/they. —⁠Legoless (talk) 15:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

No sane human being ascribes any value to this nonsense, I hope you all understand.— Unsigned comment by 31.200.147.202 (talk) at 23:50 on 25 March 2024 (CET)

While I don't really support the intended message of the previous comment, I do wonder if non-binary is the best word here. From my understanding, he/they is just he/him with clarification. They/them pronouns work for any living thing as an ambiguous pronoun regardless of the preference between feminine and masculine pronouns. So everyone can be referred to with they/them, it isn't really a different set of pronouns but rather an additional presented option which was always there in the first place. So I think either sticking to the previous page's Male gender with an added note about the updated they/them usage in the Archive or changing the page to plain non-binary are better alternatives than what is currently presented. Mindtrait0r (talk) 23:13, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

No, not everyone can be referred to with they/them. It's a set of pronouns like he/him and she/her or anything else. Some people, not all, but some people might get upset or bothered by being referred to with they/them if they explicitly state other pronouns. (For example, a female-to-male trans person might use he/him exclusively, and see the gender-neutral they/them as misgendering) Considering ZOS went through the effort of REDACTING he/him from the loremaster archive PLAYER QUESTIONS and replacing it with they/them, I believe their intention is clear. If it was just a supplement/addition to he/him, they would've left those pronouns in. CoolBlast3 (talk) 23:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Also worth pointing out that Daedra have long been considered genderless. Would "None" be more appropriate than non-binary? —⁠Legoless (talk) 19:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Given that absolute most daedra still have some form of gender or at very least gender presentation, and some kinds of Daedra (Dark Seducers/Golden Saints) for instance even have clear and strict gender roles, and that even in context of bestial daedra like Inferniums we have some that are male (world boss in Deadlands) and some are female (boss in Scrivener Hall), I believe that in the end the case of Fa-Nuit-Hen its rather clear and deliberate what is the writters intention, and that intention is not paying homage to concept of genderless daedra.Tyrvarion (talk) 20:50, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I was about to write up a reply but then noticed Tyr wrote it for me. Fully agreed with what he said. Also worth noting that Fa-Nuit is a Scion of Boethiah, basically the only notable Daedra in TES to regularly actually change gender presentation.CoolBlast3 (talk) 22:41, 27 March 2024 (UTC)